Book industry leaders EJ Hurst from New Society and Jen Knoch from ECW Press talk about their work and progress in making their operations greener. Brian O’Leary from the Book Industry Study Group shares insight into the mission of the Green Book Alliance, the resources they have made available, and what they’re hoping to accomplish in the near future.

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Transcript

Nataly Alarcón: Welcome to a new episode of the BookNet Canada podcast, I’m Nataly Alarcón, BookNet’s Marketing & Events Manager. Today, we’ll be sharing a series of short interviews we recently did with New Society’s EJ Hurst, ECW’s Jen Knoch, and Brian O’Leary from the Book Industry Study Group.

In these interviews, we had the opportunity to learn about the work they’re currently doing in their organizations and, in the case of Brian, in the Green Book Alliance, a coalition between the UK’s Book Industry Communication (BIC), BookNet Canada (BNC), and the Book Industry Study Group (BISG) in the US.

But before we hear from them, and because this is the BookNet podcast where we love to share data, I’m going to give you a sneak peek at data we’ve recently collected for upcoming studies about the topic at hand: the environment and books.

Let’s talk about responses to our Leisure & Reading Study survey. When asked whether or not respondents agreed with a series of statements about print books, we found that 42% of respondents said yes and 28% said sometimes to the statement “I want books to be made from sustainably-sourced paper”, and 40% said yes and 24% said sometimes to the statement “I want my books delivered in ecological-friendly packaging.”.

In this same survey there was an open-ended question where we asked respondents “What would you like the book publishing, book retailing, or library sectors to know?” Here are some environment-related answers:

“I would love [it] if more companies switched to sustainable paper print or recycled papers to help the environment.”
“Please do as much as possible to recycle.”
“We need to be printing books using recycled materials and we need to change our entire structure in terms of production and logistics to become environmentally sustainable.”

Food for thought.

Switching gears and looking at the results of our Canadian Book Consumer survey, we asked a similar question about whether or not respondents agreed with a series of statements, one of them being “The environmental impact of the book industry matters to me.” 25% of surveyees (buyers and borrowers combined) said yes and 32% said sometimes. Focusing on buyers only, 30% of them said yes and 38% said sometimes. Borrowers had similar responses, 32% said yes and 33% said sometimes. Overall, this is evidence that readers are interested in a more sustainable book industry.

So, what are publishers doing to make their operations more sustainable? First, let’s hear from EJ Hurst, Sales Manager at BC-based New Society Publishers, an activist, solutions-oriented publisher, B Corp certified, and a leader in sustainable publishing for over 40 years.

EJ Hurst: Good morning, Nataly. How are you?

Nataly: Good. How are you doing, EJ?

EJ: I'm doing well.

Nataly: I'm so happy to see you and so happy that we were finally able to coordinate. Why don't we get started with the first question? What myth about making publishing greener do you think should be busted?

EJ: I love that question. And it's that publishers can't afford to be green. And what I would like people to consider is what do they actually mean when they say afford? I would encourage them to examine the definition of success for their businesses. We're a small publisher, New Society Publishers, and we are guided by our environmental principles and sometimes that means trade-offs, but we've been able to print on post-consumer recycled paper, which reduces our carbon footprint by approximately 60% to a publisher that prints on virgin paper. And we've been doing that since 2002, and we're still in business. We're still a successful publisher. And so I would challenge people to examine what do they mean when they say they can't afford it, and also, what can the planet afford? So the things that you are not paying for the planet is paying for, and how do you balance that book?

Nataly: That is incredible, especially taking into account that we are talking, like, over 20 years in business and, you know, like, surviving a pandemic, which was a big hit for all types of businesses, including publishing. So it says a lot that New Society is still well and thriving. In an interview published on our blog back in January 2022, you mentioned that the biggest roadblock New Society was dealing with when trying to implement sustainable practices was sourcing recycled paper for print-on-demand titles. Is this still true or has something changed?

EJ: It's still true. There has been a small change. So Ingram is our distributor in the United States, and they are a distributor for many, many companies. They don't have recycled paper, but just recently Shawn Morin, who is the Chief Executive Officer at Ingram, joined the board of a hemp paper company which is developing an alternative to tree-based paper, which is actually terrific. Canopy in Canada published a report about nextgen paper solutions, and they called for companies like Ingram to step forward and help support these innovative alternatives to tree pulp paper. And so Ingram is moving in that direction. So, that's a great plus. I imagine it's a lot of years away still. There's still no recycled paper content. You can get short runs.

So Rapido in Canada, we use them for our short-run printing which is different. So, you print a small amount of books on a digital printer. But they do have 100% post-consumer recycled paper. Friesens does some digital printing too, but all of the other options... So, the print-on-demand is the system where someone orders a book, the book gets printed, and then you can print it, for example, in the UK, so you don't have to print books in North America and then ship them overseas, which is a great environmental benefit. But we're currently trying to figure out what's the cost benefits if the book is printed on virgin paper but not shipped, how does that all come up in the balance sheet?

Nataly: That's really good to know. And for our listeners, we are gonna be adding a link with further information about what EJ just shared with us. And our next question and last is, what would you say to the decision-makers in publishing who are still on the fence or undecided about making sustainability a priority in their operations?

EJ: I would say that there's no more time to wait. Action is critical right now and everyone has a role to play. We're blowing through the limits that are being set by scientists for planetary heat limits. It kind of breaks my heart to see people stopping using that 1.5 degree because they're basically acknowledging we're not gonna hit that and now they're using two — or a different number. And I find that discouraging and also really makes it even more urgent for someone to do something and that someone is us. So, I think now is the time, the window is ever closing, so don't delay.

Nataly: That's very true. I'm wondering if there's anything else that you wanted to share in terms of the model of New Society and how sustainability became a very strong mandate in your operations and what you do. Is there, like, a background story to that or was it always there or did something evolve? What can you share with us about that?

EJ: So, our background commitment to social and environmental sustainability grew with the company. So it came out of non-violent protest training in the 1960s. So that's kind of where our company was born. In the 1990s, David Suzuki declared a turnaround decade where we had 10 years to change what we were doing and save the planet. And our publisher at the time, Christopher Plant and co-founder Judith Plant took that to heart. And really that's when the company really started to take a lot of action on sustainability. So, that's kind of the background story. And now, you know, what it looks like today is we're trying to find solutions where we combine this print-on-demand or short brand or printing with less shipping. And also, the whole industry is kind of changing its model, and it has the potential to be a better model as long as all of the pieces fall into place.

And it's really terrific to see lots is happening in the UK. Bloomsbury just won that London Book Fair Sustainability Award and... Oh, dear. And the other company was shortlisted. We were shortlisted and so was Penguin Random House. And to see what those really big companies are able to do is fantastic because they've got the volume of business to actually make things change. So, that's really exciting.

Nataly: I think that's, like, really important. I agree with you because I feel like there's always the two sides, right? Like, whether the company is too big and they're like, oh, we don't have the time, or, you know, that's not our focus right now. And there's always some sort of type of reason/excuse and then the smaller companies are like, we have limited resources and so it's nice to see that there are different types of companies, different sizes, different locations that are really putting effort into making this not just something that they plan for the future and that they might do, but that it's starting to become a reality for them and hopefully, others will follow too.

EJ: Yeah, and I saw a presentation from Courtney. She is from Penguin House UK. I was so impressed with what she was doing because everyone at New Society, like the whole company is devoted to the mission. So in a way, it's easier. And she is in this huge company and she has to have her arguments so well established and researched and backed up with numbers. And because she's having to convince people who are probably pretty skeptical and also convince them to spend money on it. And yeah, so it's a completely different situation and I think those companies are doing an amazing job.

Nataly: Well, EJ thank you so much for joining us. We look forward to seeing what other things New Society does in the future. And thank you for your time. We really, really, really appreciate it.

EJ: Thank you so much. Thanks for inviting me today.

Nataly: Now, let’s hear from Jen Knoch, Senior Editor at ECW and chair of the Association of Canadian Publishers' sustainability committee.

Thank you, Jen, for being here with us. I am so excited to ask you these questions and learn more about what's happening with ECW and sustainability, the projects that you're working on. So, the first question that we had, is what's changed during the last years for ECW's sustainability goals? Are there any particular wins or new obstacles that you wanna share with us today?

Jen: So mostly we've been plugging along. I mean, like a lot of publishers, printing has been more of a challenge in the last year in terms of what's available and timing and getting the stocks you want. But, luckily, we've been pretty successful in being able to continue to uphold our desire to have basically, almost 100% post-consumer waste paper. Which is really wonderful. That's the biggest factor in our sustainability mission by far. It's about 92% of our footprint and, like, that's using already recycled paper. And we know that this is our biggest impact.

The biggest thing that has happened for us is that we successfully were certified as a B corporation. This is a really kind of long process. It took well over a year, maybe a year and a half to go through the evaluation process, go through all of the checks from the company. And actually, a lot of people are applying to become B Corp since the pandemic, which is kind of a nice side thing to know that they actually had a big backlog of companies who wanted this certification. And for people who don't know what that is, that is basically a certification that holds businesses to high standards of social responsibility, environmental responsibility, and transparency. So the idea is it's a way to show certain businesses are trying to use business itself as a way to make positive change in the world. So this puts us in the company of companies like Patagonia, like Ben and Jerry's, and here in Canada, like New Society who I know you're also talking to, they were the trailblazers for this for publishers in Canada. They were the first publisher to become certified, and so we are following in their footsteps and we're number two now.

And hopefully, this becomes a pattern that more people do. We're hoping that this allows us to have a way to track really specific aspects of our business and to do better at those because you have to continually re-certify every three years to be a part of this programme. And so that means that we have to keep doing better. That's actually the standard. It's not that you just get to toe the line for the entire time you have this certification, they want to see improvement from you as well. It also enters us into this community of other people who are striving to do better in the way they do business. And so you have access to people who maybe are working in different industries but face some of the same challenges, whether it is using carbon offsets or, you know, where they host their website or there can be lots of different smaller issues that are consistent among businesses of various sizes and sectors. And so, the hope is that we'll be able to also learn from them and bring some of that back to the publishing industry.

Nataly: Wow. Well, congratulations on getting certified. As you said, it's not an easy process and it takes a lot of, like, team effort. And I really love the fact that it's not just like a one-time thing, you know, that you really need to keep these things in place and improve, and it feels like you're on the right path and definitely leading by example. So let's switch gears a little. In an interview that we published on our blog back in January 2022, you mentioned that specific funding for publishers to enable them to make greener choices and help Canada meet its greenhouse gas reduction goals will enable publishers to better balance purpose and profit. What other types of support from the government and supply chain partners do you think that publishers need or can benefit from in order to make their operations more sustainable?

Jen: One big thing is having sustainable stock options, which is usually 100% post-consumer waste stock options. This isn't available for all publishers in that generally recycled stock doesn't have the same bright whiteness that people use for full-colour printing. It doesn't have the same coatings that people use for full-colour printing. So this is more difficult for people like cookbook publishers or children's publishers. But for, like, the vast majority of books in Canada, what we're looking for is 100% PCW paper. And we work with a couple of printers who are good at stocking that for kind of regular books that we do with on large print runs.

The challenge often becomes with smaller digital print runs, which we call print-on-demand. Print-on-demand printers don't always stock recycled options. And certain among them do have some and notably others don't. And this is a big challenge because that is what a lot of smaller publishers rely on to print their books. And if they don't have access to those stocks, they can't make that choice. And as I was saying, like this is the single biggest, but you know, by far choice that we can make as publishers. So, having that option is really, really useful. And I'd love to see those remaining printers who don't have those stock options get on board. And I know that that's something that several Canadian publishers are asking for and requesting to be holdouts to say that, like, we really do want this and we will print a lot of books this way. Because not only is that what a lot of smaller publishers use, we use it too for, you know, little short reprints because we also don't wanna print a bunch of books we don't need. That goes against the whole thing we're trying to do here, because eventually those are just destroyed and it's been a whole waste of resources.

So closing those gaps in printing where those stocks aren't available would be really useful. And then, just in terms of government funding, to, like, echo what I was saying before, you know, the government wanted to make books more accessible and they put $23 million towards making that happen and it paid big dividends. We now see how many publishers are Benetech certified. We saw a huge surge in accessibility. You know, they wanted to increase online sales of Canadian books and they put $32 million towards that. So like these big chunks of money have been available for worthy projects. And in the case of sustainability, like that kind of infusion of cash that could offset... sometimes choices being more expensive for publishers. That could offset other industry-wide projects that we could use to make our whole industry more sustainable. Like, that could have the same effect for sustainability. We just haven't seen that yet.

Nataly: Related to this, I was wondering if you can please tell us about the funding applications that I know you have been putting together for a carbon calculator for indie publishers. How is that process going?

Jen: You know what, TBD. We are waiting. I actually am hoping to speak to someone, like, truly maybe today about the results of one of those applications. But basically, we have grant applications in with Heritage and with the Canada Council to make a carbon calculator that would be customizable and usable for all independent Canadian publishers. Because the fact of the matter is that even though we're all different, we use a lot of the same warehouses, the same printers, we have the same factors in the decisions we make. And it wouldn't be efficient or realistic for each publisher to undertake a carbon accounting of their own. They can be quite expensive and time-consuming. And so we worked with a few carbon accounting firms to try and create a solution that would allow publishers to get both a sense of their footprint as a whole. So that could be things like your offices, your shipping, your printing, your travel, all of these factors that, or at least worth considering, the ones that aren't so infinitesimal.

And then, also a calculator that would kind of allow people to focus in on say one particular book and say, what if we printed it on this paper versus this paper? What if we were printing on recycled paper in Canada, but we had to ship it across to the UK? Is that worse than printing in the UK on this paper that is less recycled, for example? Because right now, basically, we can make decisions based on the cost and we can make decisions based on time and I suppose quality, but we can't make decisions based on carbon or based on environmental considerations in a way that is really black and white, that is really clear. So, we want that data because, I mean, a lot of times in the environmental movement, there are things that seem more eco and like, you know, even if we're talking about say, paper bags versus plastic bags, paper bags aren't necessarily more environmentally friendly than plastic bags. They just have different impacts.

And so we think that we're super noble by using our paper bag, but like really we might not, and similarly, like we might think we're noble by using our new tote bag we brought but, like, you have to use that tote bag hundreds of times to make it the same as hundreds of plastic bags. So we wanna make sure that we don't run into these false assumptions and traps and we can make the best decisions possible, especially if we're gonna be spending a bit more money on them, which isn't always the case, but is sometimes, we know. Is it worth it to buy the carbon offsets for this flight? Is it worth it to choose this delivery method that, you know, is slower but would be more sustainable? So we want to be able to give publishers this ability to not only look at their carbon footprint as a whole as a company, but some publishers might not be there yet. They might just be like, well, I wanna make a different choice for this one book.

And let's present all of the variables clearly so that we can do A/B comparisons and make the best choices possible, whatever your resources are, whatever the size of your business or the size of your print run. And so really without that tool, we can read some research, we can look around, and there are some assumptions we can safely make, like recycled paper is better. But I think that we could do this far more systematically and efficiently. And to do that, we need this calculator. So it's actually an incredibly efficient use of money if we can make this work for a couple hundred Canadian publishers and put it into place, like, that can yield huge effects. So, hopefully, those funding applications are successful, it's kind of this month that those decisions should come down. And if they're not successful, I don't intend to give up. So I'll simply pivot and try something new. Because I really do think this is kind of the foundation of what work we'll do in the future.

Nataly: I completely agree. And it sounds also like this type of initiative will probably get a lot of the publishers who are still like on the fence, who're unsure, more motivated to actually take part on this and not be so afraid of, you know, how complex it might sound or be because there's already work that it's being done and tools that they can actually take advantage of and make data-informed decisions.

Jen: Exactly. And, you know, and then we can develop best practices. So right now, and I know that the Green Book Alliance is working towards this in some ways too, but, like, figuring out what those best practices are, but first we need the data.

Nataly: Wow. That project really sounds amazing. Like, it truly does. And I hope that it all goes well. I hope you hear, like, nothing but good news because a lot of people can actually benefit from this.

Jen: It's been great to see how many publishers were interested when I had to gather that kind of support for the grant application. And, you know, I had instantly a dozen publishers write me back saying, yes, that would be great. And that's wonderful because those are our early adopters. And it was also dependent on them opening an email on the first week back from the holiday break. So I imagine a lot of people didn't even open that email. So, yeah, I am optimistic about what we can do and the interests that we'll get in it once it is realised.

Nataly: Wonderful, wonderful. And we also know that you have recently become the chair of the Association of Canadian Publishers' brand-new sustainability committee. So, well, first of all, congratulations. We are wondering if you can please just tell us first what led to the creation of the committee, who is part of it, and what is the committee helping to accomplish?

Jen: So the committee came out of members of the association having an increasing interest in sustainability and recognising that this is a front that needs our attention. You know, people who work in publishing are often on the idealistic side of things and recognise that we are in a classic crisis and we need to be doing everything we can to change that. And so the ACP, they decided to form the committee and asked me to chair it. And we've only had one meeting so far, so we've really just gotten our feet wet. But there's, you know, about a dozen people from publishers across Canada sitting there. And I think a lot of our work is going to be informed by this calculator project because it will show us which directions are most important to do.

But in the meantime what we hope to do is learn from other sectors. For one, there are people doing great work in theatre and in music, and I actually came across this Green Games Guide recently, which was put together by the tabletop gaming industry on, like, their best practices for sustainability. And I thought it was amazing. So, while we generate the data on our own industry, we can learn from other industries, we can also share amongst ourselves what are we doing, what works for us. Because, certainly, people are working away in their own little pockets trying to find better envelopes to mail in or, you know, a more sustainable hosting platform or whatever the case may be. And so sharing those best practices, you know, work. Even one thing that came up was the banks we work with, because, of course, we know that RBC, for example, is, like, the number four funder of climate destruction in the world which is to say generally of oil and gas development. And so, like, do we really want to be giving our money to them? And what kinds of other sustainable banking options are there? So, like, kind of co-op banking, for example. So there are lots of fronts that people are interested in. There are lots of places where we can do better that is one way of looking at it. And so, my goal is to kind of be guided both by the data that comes up by people, the role models in other industries, and then by the interests of the members themselves. If the people care enough to come to this committee, surely they have interests and insights that are worthy of sharing.

And it's funny, you know, what could even come of these conversations. In our first meeting, I brought up the fact that last Earth Day, I asked our social media person to do a post of, like, what we do to try and make our work more sustainable. And that seemed a no-brainer for Earth Day to do that. And even though, like some people have this on their website, and I was like, let's put it out there rather than just putting like some environmental books on sale, let's talk about what our commitments are to this marble that we live on. And that was great. She did an amazing job. And then, I looked around to be like, surely other people are doing this. And no one was that I found. And I thought, what a missed opportunity to have this conversation, both with other publishers and with consumers, just to say the choices that you're making around the books that you buy do have an impact. And we are thinking about these things.

And so even at this first ACP meeting, I was able to say like, "Hey, guys, it's Earth Day this month, have you thought about doing this?" And people said, "Oh, yeah, I haven't thought about it. It's like, this is a good idea." And like, let's show the people what we're doing and where we stand. And that's, like, such a small step, but it is creating a conversation that wasn't there before. It's showing that this is an issue that's worth commenting on. Certainly, we've seen no shortage of social issues that publishers have felt called to comment on and the time has come for this to be one of them. Time has passed really for this to be one of them based on the IPCC reports we've just finished enduring. So yeah, who knows? It's exciting. We've only had one meeting, but I'm really glad that the ACP members identified this as a priority area, and I'm excited to see what we can do.

Nataly: I love that for many reasons, but I think that, you know, like, just being transparent about the things that you're doing and also sharing that, you know, it's a work in progress. I don't think that anyone, not even within the industry, or as a reader, as a buyer expect someone to have all the boxes checked when it comes to sustainability. I think that we all know that it's a very complex topic and that it should be addressed from many different areas. Like what you were saying about the banks, for example. I honestly didn't even think about that before. And when you're saying it's like, oh, yeah, you know, like maybe me as an individual should be thinking about that too. And I also, you know, with the changes in how people are becoming more inclined to learn about like, what is the company that I'm gonna buy X thing doing to make things better for the environment? Like, that's also changing. So this has so many benefits from not just necessarily about the marketing side of it, but also between organizations to see others like, oh, they're sharing this, maybe I can do that too, or maybe prepare for next year and start doing something about it. So, I love that.

Jen: And retailers can do that too. And that's something I didn't really talk about in the supply chain, but I think that right now people just see a book as a book as a book generally. Some of them may be prettier or whatever, but they don't really think about the differences between something that is on 100% recycled paper. And it would be amazing if various retailers, if that's Indigo, I could select it, you know, you have your dropdown menus of things you can select for, what if I could select for paper that was 100% recycled or for something that was certified in this way or that. And so, you know, Amazon has featured stores of this and that, and what if it was featured of the people who are making books that are more sustainable? What if this was a conversation that booksellers, you know, had with people or did education around on Earth Day?

So, you know, we're doing that education too. There are so many consumer-facing people in this industry that can also kind of put this message that when we flip to that copyright page, there actually is some important information on there. And how to read that information. And then, people who are inclined, you know, if I'm buying a notebook at Indigo, I can select a notebook that is 100% that is made on recycled paper. That's pretty easy to see, but I don't have that information for a book. So even if that is a priority to me as a customer, I can't see it. So that's a data problem, that's an organisational motivation issue. There are lots of things down there that would inform the ability to have that option, but just to say like, that could be something that happens in the future.

Nataly: Thanks, Jen. This has been wonderful and extremely insightful. Thank you so much for your time.

Jen: Oh, thank you for having me. It was really fun.

Nataly: Now that we’ve heard from two representatives of publishing houses, let’s go over what industry organizations are doing to support the efforts of the supply chain to become greener. Let’s hear from Brian O’Leary as he introduces us to the Green Book Alliance, its work, the resources they’ve made available to the public, and their plans for the future.

Thank you, Brian, for joining me. I am so thrilled to have this conversation about the Green Book Alliance, and the first question that we have for you is, can you please tell us more about the Alliance? What is it? Who is part of it? And what led to its creation?

Brian: Sure. So the Green Book Alliance is a combination or collaboration among BookNet Canada, Book Industry Communication in the UK, and Book Industry Study Group. Beyond having the word book in their titles, they're the kind of the supply chain organizations for the Canadian, UK, and the US markets. We're good friends. The directors are all well-known to each other. We serve on boards of different organizations. In 2020, during the first year of the pandemic, Karina Urquhart, who leads BIC, who's my counterpart there, asked Noah Genner, who leads BookNet Canada, and me, if we were interested in kind of throwing in to create what became known as the Green Book Alliance. And we both had an interest because sustainability, particularly in the UK and Canada, a little bit less so in the US, although it should be, I think it's improving.

Sustainability is a topic that we all share an interest in and we don't own. There's not a Canadian sustainability perspective as much as is a global requirement. So the idea of bringing information to the book business about what sustainability means and how you might better understand what your part of it is kind of informed the Green Book Alliance. And we came together in the second half of 2020, and we've done a few things along the way.

Nataly: Nice. So one of those things that we know of, is the Publisher Printers Sustainability Checklist that was released a month ago. A little bit over that, I think.

Brian: Right.

Nataly: Yeah. Can you please tell us more about it? What can people expect to find there?

Brian: Sure. So, the idea of checklist, in general, this one is specifically for conversations between publishers and their manufacturing partners, but the idea of checklist, in general, has been on our radar since the outset. Because we think it's a useful way to communicate information about how to have a conversation about sustainability. And the specific topic, of course, might vary. In the early part of 2022, an organization, the Book Manufacturers Institute in the US, which has some Canadian members like Marquis Printing as part of their leadership, came to us and said, "We're getting asked the same question in different ways, and in some cases, different questions that want the same answer, or that we don't understand. Is there any way that we can come up with a common vocabulary for those conversations between publishers and printers?"

So, we set about doing that probably in three phases. The first was to understand BMI's perspective, what are they hearing as manufacturers? The second was then to have separate conversations with publishers in the Canadian, the US, and the UK market. We didn't have to do those separately, but they're a little bit easier to hold when participants know one another. So, obviously, Canadian publishers, smaller community, and with different interests sometimes than larger US-based publishers. So having those conversations separately gave us kind of a compendium of all the things publishers wish they could hear.

We also found differences among the three markets. So the UK's relatively sophisticated, Canada's not too far behind, but a lot of the folks in the US didn't even have a basic understanding of some of the components of sustainability, like scope of emissions, scopes one, two, and three, which could be its own webinar. And so we finished that data collection, then set about, okay, how do we organize this into a useful set of questions and draft answers? And that took us probably the longest period of time because we were trying to navigate language that would work across three different markets and really with a global audience. But that came together pretty well in the second half of 2022.

We went through a little bit of a review with the people that we brought into conversation, publishers in particular, and said, does this work for you? We got some good feedback there. And then we published it in February of 2023. It's a living document. We'll continue to update it. Noah and I had a brief conversation even today about a potential addition that somebody suggested. But it's a good checklist, it's a good way for publishers and manufacturers to get started or to deepen their understanding of how to talk about sustainability.

Nataly: That's very interesting. And I like that it's something very actionable that people can start using. You know, that it's not just about awareness, about the importance of sustainability, but it's, you know, like, this is what you can start using in order to become more sustainable in your negotiations with printers and so on. And, at least, I've heard from one publisher that they have already used the checklist that they were so grateful for it.

Brian: That is heartwarming to hear. I hadn't heard that example before, but it's encouraging. It is very much the case that, particularly, if there are several people that are involved, but the organizations that Noah, Karina and I run are fundamentally focused on solving problems. Sometimes they differ on the problems that we choose to solve in each of our markets, but we're problem-solving engines, so we tend to be very practical. And it's great that that comes across.

Nataly: I think that's the perfect approach when it comes to our audience specifically. And to that point, I am wondering what is next for the Green Book Alliance? What can we expect to see in terms of content? Events? What else is down the pipeline?

Brian: We've got a couple of things on the radar this year. We're switching gears a little bit. We've been using the consultant, Simon Crump, he's based in the UK, to provide support on a part-time basis for the last year or so. I guess really 16 months. And he's gonna be focusing on the UK's efforts, which are substantial. So we're looking for a new external resource. And I think we have some good leads, but we'll be announcing somebody soon.

We expect to add a checklist. We're thinking about conversation with distributors and retailers. There's a lot of concern and/or opportunity potentially in things like packaging. Also, better communication about orders and returns obviously have an impact on your sustainable footprint, but checklist around that might be in work for the second half of the year. And we launched in January, our first webinar. Most of our organizations do webinars and podcasts on a pretty regular basis. But the Green Book Alliance did one for the first time in January on scopes one, two, and three emissions with a publisher for PRH UK as well as a Canadian entity that provides support and services for sustainability and they have a global focus, but it's a Canadian-based company. And I think we're looking at programming that we'll then roll out on a more or less quarterly basis. So I'd expect two or three more of those webinars before the end of the calendar year.

Nataly: Exciting. Yeah. And for our listeners, we are gonna add a link to the webinar that Brian has mentioned. I had the opportunity to attend that webinar. And even as a person who is not very knowledgeable about publishing, I learned so much. And the way that they talked about everything was so easy to follow. And I think that it's a wonderful resource for people looking into learning more about greenhouse gas emissions.

Brian: Right. That's exactly right. And I think that... I mean, that's the common denominator, you know, what's the CO2 equivalent? But the question becomes how do you translate that into what you do every day? And the thing that was encouraging, particularly Courtney Ward-Hunting, who's the rep from PRH UK has had a leading role within her company to try and foster conversations about sustainability. So the advice that she brings that's evident in that webinar is very practical. Everything from what are the practices internal to the company, to how do you maintain good approaches to energy conservation and making the right choices, as well as the broader, what do we do as a strategy for carbon footprint when most of the impact of book publishing is accrued in printing and manufacturing and distribution. So, I do encourage people to go through it. We were really happy with how that turned out.

Nataly: Yeah, it was excellent. And another thing that I really liked about that webinar, it's that even though, you know, she was talking from the perspective of, you know, a gigantic organization, there are like so many things that even the smaller publishers can also take and do and include into their workflows.

Brian: We're definitely looking too, for the upcoming webinars, to find examples involving smaller companies, including smaller publishers so that we can talk about, you know, talk about it from a practical standpoint. But I agree with you. I think that it's best not to disregard that it's a PRH or PRH UK example, but rather to take away from it what you can and then combine it with your own company's experience to try and find your own path. And I hope that's what people continue to take away from the work that we do under the Green Book Alliance.

Nataly: Well, Brian, thank you so much. Those are all the questions that we had. I want to thank you again for your time. It's been wonderful having you here.

Brian: Great. Thank you for having me.

Nataly: Thank you to all our interviewees for their time and for sharing their insights and expertise. This is a matter where everyone from all corners of the industry has to be committed, willing to learn, and participate. It’s not a linear process or predictable work, but together we can help make our industry impact on the environment as minimal as possible.

As always you can find the links to the resources mentioned in today’s podcast on our episode notes.

Before I go, BookNet Canada acknowledges that its operations are remote and our colleagues contribute their work from the traditional territories of the Mississaugas of the Credit, Anishinaabe, Haudenosaunee, Wendat, and Mi’kmaq Peoples, the original nations of the lands we now call Beeton, Brampton, Guelph, Halifax, Toronto, and Vaughan. We encourage you to visit the native-land.ca website to learn more about the peoples whose land you are listening from today. Moreover, BookNet endorses the Calls to Action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada and supports an ongoing shift from gatekeeping to spacemaking in the book industry.

The book industry has long been an industry of gatekeeping. Anyone who works at any stage of the book supply chain carries a responsibility to serve readers by publishing, promoting, and supplying works that represent the wide extent of human experiences and identities in all that complicated intersectionality. We, at BookNet, are committed to working with our partners in the industry, as we move towards a framework that supports "spacemaking," which ensures that marginalized creators and professionals all have the opportunity to contribute, work, and lead.

We'd also like to acknowledge the Government of Canada for their financial support through the Canada Book Fund. And of course, thanks to you for listening.

Podcast: Industry leaders on making publishing greener

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