Listen to this month’s episode where we hear from Max Arambulo, Bookseller & Manager at TYPE Books Junction, about how they run the bookstore with inclusivity and equity in mind, create safe spaces for their staff and customers, and build community.

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Transcript

Nataly Alarcón: Welcome to a new episode of the BookNet Canada podcast. I am Nataly Alarcón, BookNet's Marketing and Events Manager. Today we'll be sharing an interview with Max Arambulo, Bookseller and Manager at TYPE Books Junction. In our conversation, we talked about how to run a bookstore with equity and inclusion in mind; touching on topics related to representation, the creation of safe spaces, staff empowerment, community building, and so much more.

Before we listen to the interview, I would like to set the stage by sharing some relevant data we have recently captured. According to unreleased data collected during the first half of 2023 from our Canadian Book Consumer Survey, Canadian book buyers actively search for books about a group or culture written by people from that group or culture, 22%; books by Indigenous authors, illustrators, and about Indigenous peoples, 11% and 12% respectively.

From our free publication, the Canadian Leisure and Reading Study 2022, we learned that the books survey respondents read were about Black, Indigenous, or person/people of colour (14%); disabled people (10%); and LGBTQIA+ people (8%) among others. What does this say about Canadian readers? The interest in diverse voices remains and bookstores have an important role to play in making sure readers find the books they're looking for and championing titles by traditionally underrepresented authors. So, with this in mind, let's hear the interview.

Hello, Max. Thank you for joining us today for this exciting interview. We truly appreciate your time and willingness to discuss inclusivity and equity in a bookstore setting. Before we dive in, let's introduce you to our listeners. Could you please share a little bit about yourself, your journey into bookselling, and your role at TYPE Books Junction?

Max Arambulo: So, my name is Max. I worked in book publishing, I guess, probably from 2009 until 2018. I worked at, you know, publishers like Simon & Schuster Canada, Penguin Random House. I started at Fitzhenry & Whiteside where I got an internship right after courses I took at Ryerson in the publishing program. The publisher there sort of suggested that I try doing publicity work, which wasn't my internship, but she saw something in me that made me a good fit for that work.

After that job, I quit eventually and started studies at U of T, University of Toronto, for psychotherapy and spiritual care. And as I was studying, I'd work shifts at TYPE. I'd known the owners, Joe and Sam and the manager at Queen, Kyle, you know, from my time doing book publishing. So I worked there. As I was studying, pandemic happened. I got to keep on studying. I got to keep on working at the bookstore. My clinical placement was at a hospital doing palliative care support and support across the other units like ICU where I was doing short-term psychotherapy and spiritual care.

I finished school, my plan was to work less at TYPE after I finished school and move more heavily into that career. Ended up working more at TYPE — last year or so at TYPE Junction at Dundas and Keele. And then I ended up using some of those skills I had been learning, you know, like sort of conflict management, team building, community building at, in my current role as one of the managers here at TYPE Junction and I'm here now talking to you.

Nataly: That is such a unique way to intersect, you know, the world of publishing and books with the topic at hand, which I think it's like very, very related to your academic background and your actual profession. So I cannot wait to hear your thoughts on all these questions that we prepared for you. So why don't we get started with the first one. So how do you, and I guess, TYPE books in general actively promote inclusivity and equity within your bookstore's community and customer base?

Max: So a lot of my current training, my girlfriend's like, you gotta stop training and stop learning and just get to doing, but sometimes that's hard for me to get to the doing and it feels so safe to keep in the learning sometimes. But working with the book My Grandmother's Hands by Resmaa Menakem, I took a one-week course with him in the fall and I'm taking a nine-month course with him now. So it looks at racialized trauma and how when two bodies of a different pigmentation, different race, were to come into contact with each other, body has its own bracing, something happens in the nervous system, and how to not feel overwhelmed when the nervous system is activated.

You know, sort of when history comes in or when intergenerational trauma comes in, how to sort of notice what's happening in the body and stay there and not sort of go off the handle. So I guess one answer of how I personally promote inclusivity and equity, racial equity, is sort of by working on myself, working on my body knowing that, you know, working at a bookstore, there's randomness every day, customers walk in, White customers, Black customers, Asian customers, and knowing that who they meet in me will sort of affect their experience in the store, it might affect the way they leave the store and the rest of their day.

So, one way is by working on my own body and realizing how I react, how I can use it for good, which then the charge in my nervous system, how I know people who sometimes walk into public spaces feeling something telling their body that they don't feel welcome there. I try not to have that so that people come in and not feel that.

I mean, you asked me a question, how does the store do it and how do I do it? It's different because I'm not the store necessarily. Nor necessarily do my values line up exactly the same, I try to like live out my own values in my work and in my personal life, and to set a good example, and to make it a welcoming space for everyone I come into contact with. So I guess one answer is working on myself, working on how people experience me, working with how sometimes I picture people experience the space.

So, sometimes it's like not an explicit way of promoting inclusivity or racial equity, but it's there in every way I sort of interact with people. Maybe some more straightforward ways is by sort of encouraging and empowering the people who work here to curate and bring in what they believe in. You know, one thing I'm proud of is TYPE Junction is the store with racial minorities of the three stores. So how to sort of embrace that as a gift and as a blessing and name strengths.

I guess maybe one other way is a lot of times I know through my experience working in publishing and in a bookstore that it's, how do I put this, bookstores and publishing, I think the neutral, where the neutral from where the industry start isn't like a very diverse neutrality. Like neutral is not diverse. So knowing that in my experience, like what that means to work with that, how when I was working with that I didn't realize that these dynamics were at play.

So now being a little bit more aware and knowing how those dynamics can affect people I'm working with. And so one way would be if some of my coworkers mention a charged encounter, one thing I strive to do is sort of witnessing their experience and not forcing them to explain what happened or to justify their experience, but just by sort of witnessing and listening, which, you know, in my experience sounds like a small thing, but in a lot of different industries I've worked in seems to be like a rare thing.

Nataly: Absolutely. I completely agree, especially in an industry where customer service is at the core and where you are exposed somehow and you are supposed to deal with different types of issues and, you know, the customer is always right and all those ideas. And when you have difficult encounters, it's really, really good when you feel supported by your manager, when you feel heard, when you feel that they are believing you and that they have the tools to help you sort through different types of situations. So I really like this approach because what I'm hearing is that you try to create safe spaces for yourself, for your staff, for your customers, and also lead by example, right?

Max: And like a lot of things we experience that are really like charged and challenging and hurtful, it takes a long time to be able to put that into words sometimes. And sometimes, you know, even like in a corporate space, can you tell me exactly what happened? No, sometimes you can't. I know it in my body and I know what it felt like. So I know that that can be very powerful for people I work with. For me, it's been powerful and I feel like creating that sort of health and safety and community, the next customer can be served by that when this person goes back on the floor, I hope, or the next sort of coworker they work with.

So, yeah, and it sucks because like a lot of times in book publishing, bookstores, words are oftentimes the highest valued thing. And it's like, for people of colour and for people on the margins, it's like, no, it's, you know, how different intelligence we have, like our body, our senses, our use of imagination. So, I mean, I don't often name all these things when I'm working with people because it's just things I'm working with deeply. So usually it's implicit in the way I come to people.

Nataly: I love that we are talking about this and I think that people really need to hear this type of conversations. So thank you. Thank you for being so open.

Max: You're welcome. I mean, I worked in it for so long and it's like been painful for so long. So like to be able to have a little bit of distance and to be asked questions by you and like people sort of it helps me too. Yeah.

Nataly: I appreciate that. So let's shift gears just a little bit and why don't you tell us a little bit about the ways you curate books, if you do, your selection to ensure that diverse voices are well represented in your bookstore.

Max: I mean, me personally being like Filipino-Canadian, I always try to, you know, sneak in books by Filipinos that have helped me in my life. You know, Lynda Barry who wrote Making Comics, she's half Filipino, she's also my writing and drawing teacher, so I always make sure to have her books around. I try to have books like, I mean, and then I also encourage like my Black colleagues, you know, to really make the Black studies section strong, powerful section, make sure what they're reading in their lives and affecting them is on the shelf.

One of my colleagues, Olivia, sort of takes an effort to read everyone else's staff picks. So, reading what each other brings into the store and knowing that each other is, oh, there is a diversity here too. There's that. What else? You know, sort of, I didn't encourage this. It was sort of my colleagues like Jessica and Cleo who did this on their own, but they're going to do a "50th Anniversary of Hip Hop" window for the store, for August.

So they'll be, you know, highlighting Blackness and Black art and Black thinkers. So it comes pretty, I mean, the people here are diverse, so I believe the books that show up on the shelves often are just extensions of who works here. A lot of times, you know, again, it's maybe another implicit thing where here are you, Cleo, Jess, Olivia, Emily, Steph, Bill, bring in stuff that's like you and who you are and I appreciate each one of you. I'm glad I work with each one of you. Make sure you bring in books that represent your Blackness, that represent your gender identity that you've been curious about. Yeah. Is that a full answer or, is there anything else you wanna follow up about that?

Nataly: No, I think it's great. I think it's a wonderful way to, you know, empower your staff to engage them in the day-to-day and to also share those stories that are, you know, like perhaps outside of the scope or the things that you know about, the things that you were saying earlier, a lot of us have different experiences, different upbringings, different interests, so it's really good to, you know, like just find out what is it that they are reading, what is it that they like? Is it, you know, related to their heritage? Is it related to their hobbies or whatever it is?

And to bring that into the store and into their offerings, I think it's a really good way to. And to also, you know, by extension offer just a wide range of titles to your customers as well, right? I think that maybe you have seen some of that, you know, like the impact of that strategy that you were just sharing earlier of engaging your staff into the selection of the books that you would carry.

Max: Yeah, I mean being like, there's one gentleman who comes in, sort of an older Filipino man, I guess, like, you know, I don't know, older, maybe that's me making assumptions, but sort of talking about sort of coming to more curiosity and interest in his Filipinoness and talking about what he found on the shelves, I think, what was he reading now? America Is The Heart by Carlos Bulosan, telling me about it and saying how, you know, sort of the experience of a Filipino migrant in California sort of speaks to his experience in the workforce here in Toronto in you know, thousands.

And then, you know, being able to point him to more books by Filipinos on the shelves. I did suggest one to him recently that I was like, oh, I don't know if that was the right one later on. So hopefully he'll come back and be like he'll either tell me it didn't impact him, or he thought it was not his taste. What else? I mean, you know, on our store Substack, we do a regular feature where we interview customers, sort of like what you're doing with me right now, but we do it in sort of text.

And I know that you know, one of the hidden things that I do in that is trying to like interview people who aren't necessarily, you know, typical sort of neutral book buyer. So it's interviewing people of a later age or people of colour or just my sort of hidden agenda. But, you know, on a couple of occasions, the second one we did was with a customer named Afra who was from Somalia originally. And she talks about sort of the impact of seeing books on shelves by Black writers and by Latinx writers. And it wasn't necessarily what she knew at other bookstores and you know, her citing that as a reason she comes back to our store over and over. Yeah, so we do see an impact and it is important.

Nataly: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, if I had a bookstore near me that had a section fully dedicated to Latinx books, you know, I will feel seen, I will feel more encouraged to just keep going there. And I am familiar with the Substack. I'm gonna be including a link actually in the podcast notes so others can subscribe because I found it very interesting.

I love that it goes beyond like book recommendations, you know, like this idea of interviewing customers. I think it's brilliant because sometimes I feel like maybe some booksellers don't take the time to get to know them. I feel like that is a really good opportunity to build those relationships.

Max: Yeah, it is. You know, sometimes I think through my day, like if it's a hard day, what do I actually like? Why am I here? Sometimes it's just seeing customers a little bit more deeply, especially with their young people, which matters to me. I didn't realize it matters to me so much. When a young person's sort of giving you their money for the first time, it seems like and I'm talking about like 6-, 7-, 8-year-old people and sort of asking them what they're buying, asking them if they wanna recommend something forward.

And we encourage them to, we have a section of handwritten recommendations from young people in our store so that they can see a physical example of them having an impact on the spaces also like, you know, sure we can impact customers, but I like the idea of it going the other way too. Yeah, seeing the impact, you know, one hidden thing or reason I do that sort of interview and actually my other people on staff too have come in and interviewed other customers too.

So, it's not just me anymore, it's just so the staff here can also hear the impact that they're having on people. And sometimes, you know, working in retail and customer service, I think there's like an underrated way that especially a bookstore and maybe other, you know, libraries, bookstores, I'm trying to think of other places too, but the way that the people who do this work impact the people that come in too, I think that isn't often as recognized either. So, yeah.

Nataly: Absolutely. Yeah, it makes total sense to just, you know, hear from their customers, what is it that they love, and perhaps it was something that they had an idea, and now their customers are talking about a book they thought that it will be important to have available. That's such a good thing to do, to engage like different parties that relate to the bookstore and build community, right? Ultimately, which I think it's like one of the things that is a big challenge for some booksellers, I believe. But this shows that there are like big and small ways to create that community and cultivate that community.

Max: Sure. For sure. Just trying to like, you know, me and the staff here a lot of times talk about what community means, treating people justly in small ways, witnessing people not forcing 'em to explain, encouraging strengths, and keeping people accountable at the same time and sort of building like a fertile soil for things to emerge that we don't even know will emerge too. A lot of times, you know, oh, we gotta do this so that we can be more diverse. We gotta do this.

And I'm like, no. Sometimes it doesn't work like that. Sometimes it's just building good, just relationships with each other and then what comes, well, what comes is like people bringing in books that they feel important and feeling like enthusiastic and it matters and people read it, bring us their ideas. Building community. I know people say it a lot, but you know, I'm learning about it too in this part of my life too.

It was something I sort of took for granted too because it's so slow sometimes, and it's so slow sometimes and hard to define and sometimes counter-cultural. But I am glad it didn't take my whole life to like start learning and it took me, you know, well, till middle life. I guess.

Nataly: In talking about learning, one of our questions and it's actually related to this. We would like to know what strategies do you use to continuously educate yourself and your staff about these important matters related to diversity, equity, and inclusion?

Max: One of the interviews that I already mentioned with Afra on the Substack, I guess, it's our regulars column. She shared an experience of working as someone with a neurodivergence, and what helped her in her different jobs and what held her back in other jobs. So she taught me a little bit about, you know, how someone who is living with, you know, ADHD like a lot more structure or how using physical ways to keep notes or to organize was really powerful, or that physical work was something that fit her better than maybe more, I don't know, less physical work, I guess.

And so I was like, oh, I will use that knowledge as I'm working more with, you know, people with different styles, different needs, different strengths. You know, so, I guess the customer taught me something about it, and, you know, I was sort of sneaky about it because I was thinking about that question already. What does it mean to work with someone who might, you know, have characteristics of bipolar or characteristics of borderline or characteristics of ADHD? I was like, what am I gonna do?

You know, I know about it maybe in my other life where I'm working as a therapist with a client, but if I'm working in customer service and retail, or if I go back to a corporate setting, what are the ways that I'll need to adjust myself? So I guess learning from the customers, learning what each of my coworkers sort of needs.

I think that's one part of equity is I think a lot of times, you know, at least in my experience in a corporate setting, a manager or someone in power thinks equity is treating everyone the same instead of valuing how they can use a different style for each person's strengths and adjusting the relationship. It's that weird thing where, you know, it's easy to like use the same brush for everybody, but like identifying each person like uniquely and individually. So I guess a long answer is I learned from a customer once, and I keep learning from customers all the time, so...

Nataly: That's really awesome. I love this. You know, like this way of engaging with your customers and hearing them and you know, like not just in a performative way, but in a way that you took action and you shared that knowledge. So I think that's really great. And it sounds like you are very intentional about it, that you're sort of in an active listening mode when you are talking with your customers and I bet that they really appreciate that.

Max: Like her answer led me to different books, you know, in the store. It sort of led me to reading on Codependent No More you know, a self-help psychology book about codependence and sometimes I've seen relationships in workspaces that look like codependence. I'm like, okay, what should I do there if there's these tendencies? Or different books on borderline personalities or... Funny, her interview just led me to more books in the bookstore.

And I guess like just recent formal training again is like, just that My Grandmother's Hands the book by Resmaa Menakem and his course on somatic abolitionism. So that's a more formal answer of how to learn my style of anti-racism and how to put that into the workplace. And sometimes I'm explicit with my coworkers about things I learn in that course, and sometimes it's just walking around with the learnings and acting sort of equitably and justly, you know.

Nataly: Subtle ways that you're putting that in practice. Pretty much.

Max: Yeah.

Nataly: Well, actually, in talking about the staff, one of our questions, it's actually related to building diverse and inclusive staff and how it's crucial for creating a welcoming environment, something that we've talked earlier, and we were wondering if you can share, sort of your approach to recruiting and also to fostering a team that embraces those values, and reflects the community that you serve.

Max: Diversity of the staff was here when I got here, so that's a boring answer, I guess. You know, I've been here maybe two years and there hasn't been a new hire. Oh, well, there hasn't been a new hire who's like, you know, of a visible minority. I mean, one answer is I told you maybe at the beginning of this, that my goal after I finished my studies was to work here in less bookstore and work more in my psychotherapy practice or in that part of my life. But an opportunity came up to work here more at the bookstore.

And one of my motivations was looking around and noticing that it was a really diverse bookstore where I could be of service to really like, support people that were here, like that I cared for and that I really enjoyed being around and maybe I could make an extra effort in working here, being around them, being curious about who they were, pointing them and encouraging them to highlight their Blackness or highlight the fact that they were non-binary.

So that was my choice. I mean, there's probably like tons of other reasons why I stuck around and couldn't, you know, but yeah, something about I really wanted to be here and support that and be curious about it. And part of me thinking I was well suited to that and part of me maybe nervous that that wouldn't happen if I stepped away. I mean, that's sort of maybe a egocentric type of thing to think, but...

Oh, I know that my colleague Jess, she's been trying to focus on doing author interviews for our Substack right now, and she just did an interview with Caleb Azumah Nelson who wrote Open Water, the new book. So I've really been encouraging her, and I don't know if she needed the encouragement. She's been making an effort to do interviews with authors of colour sort of in-depth interviews, which I think is a rare thing. I don't think there's a lot of bookstores who have long-form interviews anywhere, you know, in their marketing outreach. So that's one way.

I know Cleo, who has experience working at The Beguiling here in Toronto and is, you know, sort of an expert at graphic novels. I know they, you know, make a real effort on having a lot of graphic novels with queer characters, characters of colour. And I guess also collaborating with some of the neighbourhood businesses. We have a restaurant nearby called Tâm which specializes in Vietnamese comfort food and street food that's not seen in other parts of the city. And we really liked their business.

And one time we had a promotion to have their staff do staff picks that would live in our store and if those staff picks were purchased, they would get a discount on their food. I don't know if that had a huge monetary impact, but it sort of was one of the first things to strengthen the relationship between us and that restaurant. Maybe there'll be further opportunities to do, you know, different like lunch and book reading events and there's a bakery nearby called Noctua, and Daniel, he's one of our, you know, he's basically family here. And we're gonna collaborate with him later in the fall when we have our sort of fifth anniversary for the store. I think he'll either create a cake for us or, you know, bring food to whatever celebration we have. So we've also been making an effort to collaborate with different businesses here in the neighbourhood, you know, who are highlighting their own cultures.

Nataly: That is so cool. So cool. And not common, I believe. I feel like this is probably the first time that I'm hearing of a collaboration between a bookstore and a restaurant, and I bet the people at the restaurant were probably also very happy about collaborating with a business that, you know, it's part of their community as well.

Max: Yeah. And it's like, I mean, two things maybe I'll say to that is like, they were so excited to just pick books, you know, to someone who like works at a bookstore, I sort of like, I'm like, I gotta write another recommendation and put it up in the store. But, you know, to them they were really excited to participate, the staff there and like you said, community building like earlier, I don't know where this thing is gonna lead.

I don't think it's gonna be huge right at the beginning but building something, starting somewhere small, starting somewhere fun, starting somewhere genuine, curious with them, you know, maybe we'll talk, maybe there'll be another podcast we have like down the line and then this thing grew into something way bigger. But, you know, those are some of the first steps, first things that we've been doing with people we sort of love and enjoy in the neighbourhood.

Nataly: That sounds super fun. So there's a question that I really wanna get to, and it's about how do you handle feedback from customers who would like to see more diversity on the bookshelves while also taking into consideration budget, inventory, and space limitations, which from what I've heard, are some of the reasons why a lot of bookstores, you know, usually say like, oh, we don't carry those books because you know, like we are small, we don't have the space. So how do you handle that?

Max: I mean, to be honest, if a customer recommends something and it's someone I sort of trust and it's someone whose taste I'm curious about, I order a couple in the store. It doesn't seem like I think too hard about, I don't know if the owner's gonna kick my ass about it or anything like that, but I don't think too hard about the downside of ordering something that a customer gives feedback about. I mean, I feel like the other way if like, customers are open and it's not every customer, sometimes I'll listen to a customer and they'll say something and I'm like, that doesn't work at all. But I don't even know, and that's not coming in. I'll say maybe that it's coming in and I won't do it.

But usually, like the people I've started to trust, the people who I see regularly, the sort of, you know, like the community thing, me and you were talking about where we see each other pretty often. We trust each other or we're like, curious. I think that's like sort of like a secret weapon. If they're like gonna tell me to bring or suggest to me, oh, you should read this, you might like this. I'm like, oh, well that helps. That's sort of like a shortcut even, you know, like I'm trying to think of one recently.

I mean, you know, part of that interview series we have is customers giving us reviews. So, Afra reminding us to have lots of copies of Wash Day Diaries the graphic novel about a group of Black female friends who, you know, wash each other's hair, and sort of go through their personal lives and problems together. You know, we had it on the shelf, but her reminding us to get more on the shelf and to have it there pretty often. Or Daniel from Noctua, you know, coming in and telling us, suggesting which books, cookbooks and baking books really fire him and making sure we have books like the Malta cookbook on hand all the time, and reminding us that, you know, the Junction is historically Maltese.

I'm like, oh, good thing this customer is here to keep me in check and to remind me. So I don't think it's that hard. I think it's like listening, trusting, building community so that people feel free to suggest and recommend and participate, and then doing the whole thing over again.

Nataly: I love that approach. And sort of on the flip side of things, how do you handle issues related to censorship or challenges with carrying books that address sensitive or controversial topics while still upholding the values of inclusivity and intellectual freedom?

Max: Yeah, it's tough. You know, maybe one challenge we've seen is like customers coming in post-pandemic and sort of asking for things that challenge, the way COVID was handled or, you know, that sort of maybe, debunk some of the science about how dangerous and and hurtful and challenging the pandemic was. So what do you do in that kind of situation? Or sometimes the other way where, I remember customers, you know, young female Muslim customers coming in and asking and challenging and pushing back about having Salman Rushdie very visible on the shelves? What's the answer to that?

You know, I guess, and each person who works at a bookstore, you know, has a different history threshold, different ways they get activated, and someone who's, you know, approached by a certain customer, another person might react in a different way. How do we do it? I mean, it's a good question.

Maybe I would say it starts with like caring, you know, maybe the first step to dealing with that is caring for each person I work with because I know that when that happens, those moments happen, they're really charged, they're really challenging, they can escalate really easily. They can leave people, you know, wounded and hurt.

So maybe the first step I would do is trying to build strong bonds and strong connections amongst our team here, not in a way that puts us against them, you know, customer-wise and staff-wise, not like that, but making sure that people are supported, that they can feel, you know, safer when they're in the unknowingness of any shift. Giving tools to not escalate things, and giving people permission to step away from conversations if they need to.

Giving people tools like, you know, reminding them that they can debrief with certain people on the team too if anything comes up. And just, you know, sort of acknowledging that that's part of there's a lot of gifts that come with like, working here. There's a lot of challenges too and I guess there doesn't seem to be like a straight answer to that particular challenge, but what do you think about that answer?

Nataly: No, I think it's really good. And I also think that, you know, I feel like it changes from scenario to scenario. I don't think there's like one solution to address these issues. I feel like like, yes, you can have, you know, like some training or some tools available, but everything depends on the situation. Like if you're with others, you are gonna feel a little bit more supported. If maybe it's just you, I don't know, like opening the bookstore and then you have like a difficult encounter, like that changes the whole situation, so...

Max: I mean, maybe one, like sort of my concrete thing is we have sort of a what we say sort of like, oh, a statement of values that we have posted at the front of the store that I sort of crowdsourced it from our team, or like, we came up with a definition together where it says I can't read it to you right now, I don't have it handy, but it's posted there, you know, abuse from any side or anything from staff to customers or customer to staff, that's not allowed or that won't be taken lightly.

It has something like if you feel like you want to go to the owners, it has the owner's sort of contact information there. So there's something visible there that we have on hand that we created together and that we all sort of believe in. And that's there always near the cash register and that sort of came out of some challenging interactions too. So always new things that we're trying to do to keep customers safe, keep us safe, keep it open.

Nataly: I really like that because I feel like something like that sets the tone. You know, like people who maybe are thinking that they can do whatever they want or say whatever they want, they're gonna think twice before actually doing it, saying whatever it is they wanna say. And also, as a customer, if I see that, I'm gonna feel like, oh, they actually thought about this. You know, maybe I am actually in a space that is as safe as they can, you know, like make it. So I think it works for, you know, like different purposes.

Max: Yeah. It's helped a lot, I think.

Nataly: We've reached the end of our questionnaire. Was there anything else that you wanted to share?

Max: You know, I don't know, maybe I'd say I'm really thankful for the people I work with right now. The team I work with right now at the store. I don't take that for granted, it doesn't always seem like in my life where I've been somewhere where everybody I generally look forward to seeing and where I see them working well with themselves. So I don't know, maybe it's just, oh, I'm in a good situation right now and it hasn't always been like that, it won't maybe last my whole life. But right now it's pretty good.

Nataly: We've reached the end of this conversation, so thank you, Max, for joining us today. We are incredibly grateful for your time and willingness to share your knowledge with our listeners. To everyone tuning in, we hope you enjoyed this interview as much as we did. Thank you so much.

Max: Thanks for talking with me.

Nataly: Yeah, thank you, Max. Before I go, I’d like to take a moment to acknowledge that BookNet Canada’s operations are remote and our colleagues contribute their work from the traditional territories of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Ojibwa of Fort William First Nation, the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, the Wyandot, the Mi’kmaq, and the Métis, the original nations and peoples of the lands we now call Beeton, Brampton, Guelph, Halifax, Thunder Bay, Toronto, and Vaughan. We encourage you to visit the native-land.ca website to learn more about the peoples whose land you are listening from today. Moreover, BookNet Canada endorses the Calls to Action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada and supports an ongoing shift from gatekeeping to spacemaking in the book industry.

The book industry has long been an industry of gatekeeping. Anyone who works at any stage of the book supply chain carries a responsibility to serve readers by publishing, promoting, and supplying works that represent the wide extent of human experiences and identities in all its complicated intersectionality. We, at BookNet, are committed to working with our partners in the industry as we move towards a framework that supports "spacemaking," which ensures that marginalized creators and professionals all have the opportunity to contribute, work, and lead. We hope that our work, including this podcast, helps to create an environment that supports that shift. We'd also like to acknowledge the Government of Canada for their financial support through the Canada Book Fund. And of course, thanks to you for listening.

Podcast: Running a bookstore with inclusivity and equity in mind

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